Scenario: Private hostelsIn a lot of private hostels (also called PGs, short for 'paying guest' accommodation but it isn't really appropriate as the owners don't live there) here in Noida, people (primarily consisting of students and employees) download stuff like movies, TV shows, etc. a lot. These hostels have are very scarce in bandwidth. People keep on downloading stuff without setting limits and sometimes even Google and Facebook doesn't open.These hostels can have a Hayai data based plan with Rs ~500 as rental and Rs 10/GB (with a good speed). The hostel can have one connection with one CPE unit so that the cost and rental of the plan is shared among all the users. Billing is done to the landowner. But as it isn't an 'unlimited' plan, usage will have to be tracked for each user so they can pay for their share of usage accordingly. If usage isn't tracked, everybody will download without caring and play a blame game.A bandwidth tracker in the CPE itself which reports usage will be necessary for this plan to be used. OpenWRT has packages which can track bandwidth. If OpenWRT or something similar can be installed on the CPE then tracking bandwidth becomes very cheap.Note that this segment will find flat rate plans costing more than Rs ~1500 expensive and you won't like the line being used at full capacity 24/7 either. If a bandwidth tracker can be used then the landowners will love pushing the bill to the guests (they don't push the bill for flat rate plans) and at least some guests will prefer it over a pathetic 1/2Mbit/s connection distributed over ~15 people.
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Suggestion: bandwidth tracker in the CPE for each user
- Thread starter elepton
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i would imagine that a wireless plan would be great for something like your scenario.
every user gets his own wifi password with a defined bandwidth. but there is a centralized router catering to all the people.
A Wi-Fi CPE will be necessary anyways because most of the devices that will be connecting to the CPE will be laptops.
I assume that a 100Mbit/s bandwidth will be enough and there won't be a scarcity of bandwidth. So limiting bandwidth for each user might not be needed. Also as most of the users will be connecting with Wi-Fi each user will probably be unable to use the full 100Mbit/s bandwidth at once.
Having a separate password for each Wi-Fi user is difficult unless something like RADIUS is used. In that case either the CPE will have to become a RADIUS server or the CPE will have to relay RADIUS requests upstream and the upstream RADIUS server will have to be configured for each user inside all the premises.
every user gets his own wifi password with a defined bandwidth. but there is a centralized router catering to all the people.
A Wi-Fi CPE will be necessary anyways because most of the devices that will be connecting to the CPE will be laptops.
I assume that a 100Mbit/s bandwidth will be enough and there won't be a scarcity of bandwidth. So limiting bandwidth for each user might not be needed. Also as most of the users will be connecting with Wi-Fi each user will probably be unable to use the full 100Mbit/s bandwidth at once.
Having a separate password for each Wi-Fi user is difficult unless something like RADIUS is used. In that case either the CPE will have to become a RADIUS server or the CPE will have to relay RADIUS requests upstream and the upstream RADIUS server will have to be configured for each user inside all the premises.
A Wi-Fi CPE will be necessary anyways because most of the devices that will be connecting to the CPE will be laptops.
I assume that a 100Mbit/s bandwidth will be enough and there won't be a scarcity of bandwidth. So limiting bandwidth for each user might not be needed. Also as most of the users will be connecting with Wi-Fi each user will probably be unable to use the full 100Mbit/s bandwidth at once.
Having a separate password for each Wi-Fi user is difficult unless something like RADIUS is used. In that case either the CPE will have to become a RADIUS server or the CPE will have to relay RADIUS requests upstream and the upstream RADIUS server will have to be configured for each user inside all the premises.
Strangers sharing common Broadband connection in a PG hostel equally without complications is a "pipe dream". Better each use USB modem and select tariff plans according to their usage pattern , and let the Landlord/ secretary live in peace !
Even with two close friends sharing a common connection,friction arises.
Now a days many have smart phones wifi enabled and can connect to their system .
Even if the best Unlimited tariff plan is selected, there will be complaints about reduced speed.
I have an U/L plan and my tenants ( software Pro) have their own U/L connections.
Billing in their own names.
We don't share BB connection in the same building.
I assume that a 100Mbit/s bandwidth will be enough and there won't be a scarcity of bandwidth. So limiting bandwidth for each user might not be needed. Also as most of the users will be connecting with Wi-Fi each user will probably be unable to use the full 100Mbit/s bandwidth at once.
Having a separate password for each Wi-Fi user is difficult unless something like RADIUS is used. In that case either the CPE will have to become a RADIUS server or the CPE will have to relay RADIUS requests upstream and the upstream RADIUS server will have to be configured for each user inside all the premises.
Strangers sharing common Broadband connection in a PG hostel equally without complications is a "pipe dream". Better each use USB modem and select tariff plans according to their usage pattern , and let the Landlord/ secretary live in peace !
Even with two close friends sharing a common connection,friction arises.
Now a days many have smart phones wifi enabled and can connect to their system .
Even if the best Unlimited tariff plan is selected, there will be complaints about reduced speed.
I have an U/L plan and my tenants ( software Pro) have their own U/L connections.
Billing in their own names.
We don't share BB connection in the same building.
Better each use USB modem and select tariff plans according to their usage pattern , and let the Landlord/ secretary live in peace !
Most people will find a central model much more economical than everybody buying a USB modem for themselves.
Even with two close friends sharing a common connection,friction arises.
The friction can be negligent when users/friends are charged fairly.
Even if the best Unlimited tariff plan is selected, there will be complaints about reduced speed.
That is the reason a data based plan with full bandwidth might work well.
I have an U/L plan and my tenants ( software Pro) have their own U/L connections.
Billing in their own names.
We don't share BB connection in the same building.
You can afford your own full broadband connection with monthly rent and plan charges. Most people living in these hostels can't.
Most people will find a central model much more economical than everybody buying a USB modem for themselves.
Even with two close friends sharing a common connection,friction arises.
The friction can be negligent when users/friends are charged fairly.
Even if the best Unlimited tariff plan is selected, there will be complaints about reduced speed.
That is the reason a data based plan with full bandwidth might work well.
I have an U/L plan and my tenants ( software Pro) have their own U/L connections.
Billing in their own names.
We don't share BB connection in the same building.
You can afford your own full broadband connection with monthly rent and plan charges. Most people living in these hostels can't.
mgcarley
Founder, Hayai Broadband
Considering bandwidth tracking is only done on the edge of our network, it's better if each user has his/her own username and password, because to facilitate such a connection we would need all the ID proofs anyway, and then the user's connection needs to be closed when he/she moves out of the hostel.In fact, there's a system that's used by some Hotels in NZ which might be suitable - basically the user prepays for a set amount of time or data and uses whatever they pay for - each connection is delivered independently, but from the same wifi router.
Talking about hostels in New Zealand--In Hong Kong all the budget guest houses( max HK$300 for a tiny but a/c room) in Chung King -TST gives free wifi .(There will be 1 free pc in the reception but lot of back packers with out note book will be in Q to use it)IN malaysia /sing too most budget guest houses give free wifi. Some do like you suggest. Create a temp iD with specific expiry date/data limit/time limit.For an Indian Hostel -free every where wifi with indivual log in ID is the right solution (instead of expensive usb modem plans) and a set limit say 5/10 gb per hosteler.Log in ID will renew /change every month while paying /not paying rent!
Considering bandwidth tracking is only done on the edge of our network, it's better if each user has his/her own username and password
Do you mean something like RADIUS/Diameter for authentication, authorisation and accounting of each Wi-Fi user? That is good as long as the RADIUS server remains up all the time. Once the user is authenticated, the CPE can track the bandwidth usage and send the data to Hayai servers periodically. There can then be a web interface which the user can use for tracking their usage.
because to facilitate such a connection we would need all the ID proofs anyway
It would be easier on both sides if you just used the ID proof of the landowner. 🙂
the user's connection needs to be closed when he/she moves out of the hostel.
You can have a mapping of names like user1, user2 for each user inside the CPE to avoid reconfiguration when people join/leave the hostel. Else it would be good to give one or two users in a hostel administrative access for managing users.
In fact, there's a system that's used by some Hotels in NZ which might be suitable - basically the user prepays for a set amount of time or data and uses whatever they pay for - each connection is delivered independently, but from the same wifi router.
This is quite similar to the scenario except that there's no administrative staff and the preferred payment method is cash. A lot of people in these hostels will not use the system if they have to make online payments.
---------- Post added at 02:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:39 AM ----------
Free Wi-Fi is also given in many hostels here; however it leads to congestion and bandwidth scarcity. I don't know how other hostels manage this issue.
Why do you want temporary/one-time log IDs and have them change every month? It would be a pain in the ass to remember such IDs.
Do you mean something like RADIUS/Diameter for authentication, authorisation and accounting of each Wi-Fi user? That is good as long as the RADIUS server remains up all the time. Once the user is authenticated, the CPE can track the bandwidth usage and send the data to Hayai servers periodically. There can then be a web interface which the user can use for tracking their usage.
because to facilitate such a connection we would need all the ID proofs anyway
It would be easier on both sides if you just used the ID proof of the landowner. 🙂
the user's connection needs to be closed when he/she moves out of the hostel.
You can have a mapping of names like user1, user2 for each user inside the CPE to avoid reconfiguration when people join/leave the hostel. Else it would be good to give one or two users in a hostel administrative access for managing users.
In fact, there's a system that's used by some Hotels in NZ which might be suitable - basically the user prepays for a set amount of time or data and uses whatever they pay for - each connection is delivered independently, but from the same wifi router.
This is quite similar to the scenario except that there's no administrative staff and the preferred payment method is cash. A lot of people in these hostels will not use the system if they have to make online payments.
---------- Post added at 02:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:39 AM ----------
Free Wi-Fi is also given in many hostels here; however it leads to congestion and bandwidth scarcity. I don't know how other hostels manage this issue.
Why do you want temporary/one-time log IDs and have them change every month? It would be a pain in the ass to remember such IDs.
mgcarley
Founder, Hayai Broadband
Talking about hostels in New Zealand--
In Hong Kong all the budget guest houses( max HK$300 for a tiny but a/c room) in Chung King -TST gives free wifi .(There will be 1 free pc in the reception but lot of back packers with out note book will be in Q to use it)
IN malaysia /sing too most budget guest houses give free wifi.
Some do like you suggest. Create a temp iD with specific expiry date/data limit/time limit.
For an Indian Hostel -free every where wifi with indivual log in ID is the right solution (instead of expensive usb modem plans) and a set limit say 5/10 gb per hosteler.
Log in ID will renew /change every month while paying /not paying rent!
Hong Kong, Singapore and Malaysia are all countries where WiFi is freely available and relatively speaking, not restricted. Likewise with NZ. HK and Singapore in particular are also bandwidth rich nations, so the unlimited use option is feasible. In NZ, there are data limits applied.
As far as cost goes, because the hostel is probably going to want to charge a certain amount for this resource (otherwise we would have to figure out a rev-share model), not to mention the components required to implement the system, I would imagine that the costs would be similar to Hayai Lite, except no-one has to buy any USB dongles.
---------- Post added at 07:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:38 AM ----------
Do you mean something like RADIUS/Diameter for authentication, authorisation and accounting of each Wi-Fi user? That is good as long as the RADIUS server remains up all the time. Once the user is authenticated, the CPE can track the bandwidth usage and send the data to Hayai servers periodically. There can then be a web interface which the user can use for tracking their usage.
The CPE does not need to do this. Because we have the Hayai Zone, it would be a bad idea for the CPE to do this. As such, the authentication system would be managed on our side and would likely be the same authentication system used for our regular data clients.
It would be easier on both sides if you just used the ID proof of the landowner. 🙂
Unfortunately this would not satisfy the criteria of the DoT for having the information of the users on the network. In case some user living in a hostel decides to do something nefarious, the landowner would be held responsible, and there's no way in hell that anyone is going to take on that liability in India.
You can have a mapping of names like user1, user2 for each user inside the CPE to avoid reconfiguration when people join/leave the hostel. Else it would be good to give one or two users in a hostel administrative access for managing users.
It would be better if it were simply managed from our side as each hosteler being an individual customer on a month-to-month data plan. We charge the hostel for the infrastructure and they include it in your rent, then the hosteler pays individually for whatever data he/she uses.
This is quite similar to the scenario except that there's no administrative staff and the preferred payment method is cash. A lot of people in these hostels will not use the system if they have to make online payments.
Then they would have to buy a voucher from an authorized reseller.
Free Wi-Fi is also given in many hostels here; however it leads to congestion and bandwidth scarcity. I don't know how other hostels manage this issue.
Nor do I, however I'd be looking to ensure a good quality service and one that's difficult to abuse.
Why do you want temporary/one-time log IDs and have them change every month? It would be a pain in the ass to remember such IDs.
There is often a lot of churn in these places - it might help with ensuring that log-in IDs don't get shared around etc. You wouldn't have to remember the ID, it would just be entered once and that's it.
In Hong Kong all the budget guest houses( max HK$300 for a tiny but a/c room) in Chung King -TST gives free wifi .(There will be 1 free pc in the reception but lot of back packers with out note book will be in Q to use it)
IN malaysia /sing too most budget guest houses give free wifi.
Some do like you suggest. Create a temp iD with specific expiry date/data limit/time limit.
For an Indian Hostel -free every where wifi with indivual log in ID is the right solution (instead of expensive usb modem plans) and a set limit say 5/10 gb per hosteler.
Log in ID will renew /change every month while paying /not paying rent!
Hong Kong, Singapore and Malaysia are all countries where WiFi is freely available and relatively speaking, not restricted. Likewise with NZ. HK and Singapore in particular are also bandwidth rich nations, so the unlimited use option is feasible. In NZ, there are data limits applied.
As far as cost goes, because the hostel is probably going to want to charge a certain amount for this resource (otherwise we would have to figure out a rev-share model), not to mention the components required to implement the system, I would imagine that the costs would be similar to Hayai Lite, except no-one has to buy any USB dongles.
---------- Post added at 07:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:38 AM ----------
Do you mean something like RADIUS/Diameter for authentication, authorisation and accounting of each Wi-Fi user? That is good as long as the RADIUS server remains up all the time. Once the user is authenticated, the CPE can track the bandwidth usage and send the data to Hayai servers periodically. There can then be a web interface which the user can use for tracking their usage.
The CPE does not need to do this. Because we have the Hayai Zone, it would be a bad idea for the CPE to do this. As such, the authentication system would be managed on our side and would likely be the same authentication system used for our regular data clients.
It would be easier on both sides if you just used the ID proof of the landowner. 🙂
Unfortunately this would not satisfy the criteria of the DoT for having the information of the users on the network. In case some user living in a hostel decides to do something nefarious, the landowner would be held responsible, and there's no way in hell that anyone is going to take on that liability in India.
You can have a mapping of names like user1, user2 for each user inside the CPE to avoid reconfiguration when people join/leave the hostel. Else it would be good to give one or two users in a hostel administrative access for managing users.
It would be better if it were simply managed from our side as each hosteler being an individual customer on a month-to-month data plan. We charge the hostel for the infrastructure and they include it in your rent, then the hosteler pays individually for whatever data he/she uses.
This is quite similar to the scenario except that there's no administrative staff and the preferred payment method is cash. A lot of people in these hostels will not use the system if they have to make online payments.
Then they would have to buy a voucher from an authorized reseller.
Free Wi-Fi is also given in many hostels here; however it leads to congestion and bandwidth scarcity. I don't know how other hostels manage this issue.
Nor do I, however I'd be looking to ensure a good quality service and one that's difficult to abuse.
Why do you want temporary/one-time log IDs and have them change every month? It would be a pain in the ass to remember such IDs.
There is often a lot of churn in these places - it might help with ensuring that log-in IDs don't get shared around etc. You wouldn't have to remember the ID, it would just be entered once and that's it.
Let's define some terms here in this thread to avoid getting confused:
- sub-user - a person inside a hostel
- user - a regular customer in a usual scenario
The CPE does not need to do this. Because we have the Hayai Zone, it would be a bad idea for the CPE to do this. As such, the authentication system would be managed on our side and would likely be the same authentication system used for our regular data clients.
There are two types of authentication here:
- login done by the CPE and 'net access is for everybody who is in the network (wired and wireless both where wireless security can be a pre shared key)
- login done by sub-users in Wi-Fi; sub-users have to use some sort of login system so that their usage can be tracked and billed; a non logged in user would be restricted to just the billing portal and support.
How would you implement/deploy the login system and track each sub-user?
If the CPE does not do usage tracking of each sub-user, how will the Hayai network calculate the bill for each sub-user unless the CPE sends the ID of the sub-user along with every packet to the Hayai edge network (something like VLAN tagging)?
How is this related to the Hayai zone?
It would be better if it were simply managed from our side as each hosteler being an individual customer on a month-to-month data plan. We charge the hostel for the infrastructure and they include it in your rent, then the hosteler pays individually for whatever data he/she uses. [...] They would have to buy a voucher from an authorized reseller.
I had presumed that payments would be made by the landowner; having authorized resellers in every locality would be a big pain. Maybe postpaid will work better here than prepaid. Payment handling will certainly be interesting in this scenario. 🙂
There is often a lot of churn in these places - it might help with ensuring that log-in IDs don't get shared around etc. You wouldn't have to remember the ID, it would just be entered once and that's it.
Even if login information is shared, the usage will be billed to the sub-user mapped to it. So what's the harm? (legal issues side)
- sub-user - a person inside a hostel
- user - a regular customer in a usual scenario
The CPE does not need to do this. Because we have the Hayai Zone, it would be a bad idea for the CPE to do this. As such, the authentication system would be managed on our side and would likely be the same authentication system used for our regular data clients.
There are two types of authentication here:
- login done by the CPE and 'net access is for everybody who is in the network (wired and wireless both where wireless security can be a pre shared key)
- login done by sub-users in Wi-Fi; sub-users have to use some sort of login system so that their usage can be tracked and billed; a non logged in user would be restricted to just the billing portal and support.
How would you implement/deploy the login system and track each sub-user?
If the CPE does not do usage tracking of each sub-user, how will the Hayai network calculate the bill for each sub-user unless the CPE sends the ID of the sub-user along with every packet to the Hayai edge network (something like VLAN tagging)?
How is this related to the Hayai zone?
It would be better if it were simply managed from our side as each hosteler being an individual customer on a month-to-month data plan. We charge the hostel for the infrastructure and they include it in your rent, then the hosteler pays individually for whatever data he/she uses. [...] They would have to buy a voucher from an authorized reseller.
I had presumed that payments would be made by the landowner; having authorized resellers in every locality would be a big pain. Maybe postpaid will work better here than prepaid. Payment handling will certainly be interesting in this scenario. 🙂
There is often a lot of churn in these places - it might help with ensuring that log-in IDs don't get shared around etc. You wouldn't have to remember the ID, it would just be entered once and that's it.
Even if login information is shared, the usage will be billed to the sub-user mapped to it. So what's the harm? (legal issues side)
mgcarley
Founder, Hayai Broadband
Let's define some terms here in this thread to avoid getting confused:
- sub-user - a person inside a hostel
- user - a regular customer in a usual scenario
There are two types of authentication here:
- login done by the CPE and 'net access is for everybody who is in the network (wired and wireless both where wireless security can be a pre shared key)
- login done by sub-users in Wi-Fi; sub-users have to use some sort of login system so that their usage can be tracked and billed; a non logged in user would be restricted to just the billing portal and support.
How would you implement/deploy the login system and track each sub-user?
1. PSK is a bad idea. Putting a bunch of users on the same network 1. makes per-user traffic accounting difficult and 2. can you say malware?
2. Yes, each user has his own VLAN basically which connects to the authentication server. This can be as simple as having account credentials passed over 802.1x.
If the CPE does not do usage tracking of each sub-user, how will the Hayai network calculate the bill for each sub-user unless the CPE sends the ID of the sub-user along with every packet to the Hayai edge network (something like VLAN tagging)?
The latter is most likely.
How is this related to the Hayai zone?
Because HZ traffic is free of charge... we only charge for traffic that leaves the network.
I had presumed that payments would be made by the landowner; having authorized resellers in every locality would be a big pain. Maybe postpaid will work better here than prepaid. Payment handling will certainly be interesting in this scenario. 🙂
Perhaps, but then the payment handling would still need to be online. The alternative to this is that every month we send a list of logins & passwords with 30-day validities to the hostel owner who then on-sells them at his pre-determined rate, much like how the airport wifi works at Singapore Changi Airport or Tata's wifi works at CCD.
Even if login information is shared, the usage will be billed to the sub-user mapped to it. So what's the harm? (legal issues side)
Well, essentially it's not lawful - we're required by law to have ID proofs of everybody on the network, and the DoT is supposed to have full access to that list at any time. I'd hate for Hayai to be shut down because we weren't following the rules.
- sub-user - a person inside a hostel
- user - a regular customer in a usual scenario
There are two types of authentication here:
- login done by the CPE and 'net access is for everybody who is in the network (wired and wireless both where wireless security can be a pre shared key)
- login done by sub-users in Wi-Fi; sub-users have to use some sort of login system so that their usage can be tracked and billed; a non logged in user would be restricted to just the billing portal and support.
How would you implement/deploy the login system and track each sub-user?
1. PSK is a bad idea. Putting a bunch of users on the same network 1. makes per-user traffic accounting difficult and 2. can you say malware?
2. Yes, each user has his own VLAN basically which connects to the authentication server. This can be as simple as having account credentials passed over 802.1x.
If the CPE does not do usage tracking of each sub-user, how will the Hayai network calculate the bill for each sub-user unless the CPE sends the ID of the sub-user along with every packet to the Hayai edge network (something like VLAN tagging)?
The latter is most likely.
How is this related to the Hayai zone?
Because HZ traffic is free of charge... we only charge for traffic that leaves the network.
I had presumed that payments would be made by the landowner; having authorized resellers in every locality would be a big pain. Maybe postpaid will work better here than prepaid. Payment handling will certainly be interesting in this scenario. 🙂
Perhaps, but then the payment handling would still need to be online. The alternative to this is that every month we send a list of logins & passwords with 30-day validities to the hostel owner who then on-sells them at his pre-determined rate, much like how the airport wifi works at Singapore Changi Airport or Tata's wifi works at CCD.
Even if login information is shared, the usage will be billed to the sub-user mapped to it. So what's the harm? (legal issues side)
Well, essentially it's not lawful - we're required by law to have ID proofs of everybody on the network, and the DoT is supposed to have full access to that list at any time. I'd hate for Hayai to be shut down because we weren't following the rules.
mgcarley
Founder, Hayai Broadband
Well, now that a very brief technical feasibility is done, will you be implementing this in your network? Is it a good idea to have such complexity for a relatively small user base? 😛
...it's not complicated at all. It's a fairly straightforward system that just requires the correct WiFi router to interface with our already existing authentication mechanism(s). I'm thinking something along the lines of SiteWiFi - Wireless Hotspot, Internet, FlexE WiFi & Internet Kiosk Solutions from SiteKiosk New Zealand... there's another such provider as well but at the moment I can't remember the name of it.
...it's not complicated at all. It's a fairly straightforward system that just requires the correct WiFi router to interface with our already existing authentication mechanism(s). I'm thinking something along the lines of SiteWiFi - Wireless Hotspot, Internet, FlexE WiFi & Internet Kiosk Solutions from SiteKiosk New Zealand... there's another such provider as well but at the moment I can't remember the name of it.
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