MTNL Broadband: How can i Use my Friend account??

[mgcarley]

well it is always nice to know that you are not committing a crime running a blogging/forum business at home which i am apparently right now. 😕 one more reason to switch away from airtel. 🙁

I think it can be looked at as both ways. If you're a solo guy running out of your home and you're probably not a limited liability company and so on and so forth, forcing you to take a business connection could be looked at as unreasonable. However if you're making megabucks off it and/or need a higher quality of service or uptime, then maybe not.

@mgcarley
Its you who is interpreting as "implied within household"... based on that.. i wont be allowed to sit outside the house and surf net using wireless.

No. It's a contract between the people who sign the contract and MTNL, not the people who sign the contract's neighbours and MTNL. That's my point. If you as a householder are the one accessing the net then fine, however if your neighbour does something bad, then the responsibility is yours, but short of letting the police prosecute him, there is bugger all you can do.

and MTNL wont stand the case in court, if they say, "its implied within household"... if they say sharing is allowed, that means sharing is allowed in anyway. if they have exceptions allowed then such exceptions shud be mentioned specifically.. ask any lawyer.

Sharing is allowed. I'm not disputing that. If you have a cable or wireless access going anywhere in your house or even to another place (say, out to your lawn) so that you can use the internet that way, this is also implied to be fine.

But sharing with your neighbour means that you're sharing it to a person outside of your address, who is not responsible to the bill payer in any way - that is the meaning of location specific. Otherwise, everybody would be liable for everybody elses actions.

Even if my company were in the building next door to say Bharti Airtel Pvt Ltd, even though we buy a lot of bandwidth from them and even though we have permission to resell that bandwidth, Bharti Airtel can not be held responsible for anything I do, or anything any of my customers do, nor can we be liable for anything that Bharti Airtel or any of it's customers do. Ask any lawyer.

Also I am not selling it to a friend... plus i am not moving equipment out of my house. so those clauses do not apply.

You're redistributing it to your friend without MTNL's knowledge or consent to someone who is not part of your household, who lives at a separate address and for whom you are not responsible and who is not answerable to you. Again, that is my point.

 

[Sushubh]

However if you're making megabucks off it and/or need a higher quality of service or uptime, then maybe not.

that is one reason, i have stopped yelling out... you are causing loss to my business when i complain. i realized it a while ago that i cannot complain based on that. i am buying a home connection which does not come with a SLA. and i cannot complain if my business suffers from it because it is a home connection not aimed at businesses 😕

 

[mgcarley]

that is one reason, i have stopped yelling out... you are causing loss to my business when i complain. i realized it a while ago that i cannot complain based on that. i am buying a home connection which does not come with a SLA. and i cannot complain if my business suffers from it because it is a home connection not aimed at businesses 😕

Home service shouldn't be any less reliable than business service - in theory. However the business services are supposed to come with some form of guarantee and in some cases even compensation if that SLA is not adhered to.

 

[kreacher1]

Very well put 🙂

In post #16 I have given a link which mentions about LAN, I happened to speak to a v senior official at Prabhadevi two days ago & he told me they would not object to an owner accessing his wifi inside or outside his house provided he has adequate security measures but they would definitely object if a person is lending his connection to others for a fee or free. About how they can come to know is another story, as I am just quoting him.

Looks like many participants have missed out your post #6 & 16 :wall:

 

[Daddycool]

@amish - If you see mgcarley's posts in the forum, you will notice that the business works out on the basis that consumption of data evens out across subscribers and therefore, ISPs like MTNL can provide such plans. A few users may download 24x7 but most do not. If many subscribers start sharing their unlimited connection with friends, obviously the per user consumption will go up and hence the ISP may find the current plan unviable. The result would be a increase in price or a FUP limit which would affect those who are not sharing their connection as well. In effect, all subscribers pay an equal(subject to their plan) share to MTNL much like all society members pay an equal share of the water bill regardless of who used how much. While the water bill result is immediate, the ISP result may be delayed but ultimately will affect.
Take insurance as an example. Your premium is calculated based on past statistics. You have medical insurance for say 2.5 lakh and you claim that amount even though your premium may have been just 3000. How does the company manage? Because only a few people claim each year. What if more people were to claim each year? The premium for everybody goes up right?
So coming back to MTNL, I would say let the subscriber check with MTNL if sharing their connection is legally permitted. If not, it is cheating.
Now coming to 4 port router, that is within the same home for which the connection is provided and sharing is perfectly acceptable. I have done it a few times myself.
Feel free to disagree with me if you think I am wrong.

Edit: I typed this reply to amish before I read the posts between his and mine.

 

[mgcarley]

Personally, I think @amish misunderstood the meaning of household (being the people within the household) against within the physical confines of the house itself.A subtle, yet important difference.

 

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[amish]

Whatever I had to say, I said it in [post]441650[/post].you cant say that "household is implied"if sharing is not allowed with friends but just household, then they have to specifically write that "sharing is allowed within household"... which they have not. so when u just say "sharing is allowed" then i am free to share with anyone as long as my friend is not doing anything illegal.and i bet when you put up such a clause.. u r going to be very specific.

 

[mgcarley]

Whatever I had to say, I said it in [post]441650[/post].

you cant say that "household is implied"

if sharing is not allowed with friends but just household, then they have to specifically write that "sharing is allowed within household"... which they have not. so when u just say "sharing is allowed" then i am free to share with anyone as long as my friend is not doing anything illegal.

and i bet when you put up such a clause.. u r going to be very specific.

Actually they don't, that's not how contract law works.

To prove my point, let me make a claim using your insurance next time I break my leg or something, and we'll see what the insurance company has to say about it.

 

[amish]

LOL. Your analogy is wrong. I am not claiming anything from MTNL. Infact MTNL has stated that "sharing is allowed" in their terms, without me asking for it. Had insurance company said that "insurance sharing is allowed" (just that much, no exceptions mentioned).... does it imply that within household??no it doesnt imply only that...i can share insurance with anyone.Anyway, lets see what you would be writing in your contract.

 

[mgcarley]

LOL. They specifically write that it will not be considered.

Anyway, lets see what you would be writing in your contract.

Oh, but it doesn't matter that they say it won't be considered - YOU SAID it was OK for me to use it.

Likewise with MTNL, they have it written in their contract that "the connection is location specific". If you live at flat #10, then that contract applies to the household residing at flat #10, not flat #11 or flat #9. There are no ifs buts or maybes here.

ISPs are legally obliged to have a record of who is on the network to comply with the license obligations - if they cannot do that, they may potentially lose their license or incur fines for infractions (which are most likely to be passed directly on to the customer).

If we try another avenue, how about you let me use your driving license next time I'm pulled up by the police? Or how about I use your electricity connection to power my house? Let's see what you have to say when I start using 5 A/Cs 24/7 running off your meter.

The concept here is all the same: the contract is between you and the issuer of the contract. You do not own your driving license (that is property of the state), you do not own your electricity connection (that is property of the provider and/or lines company, and you do not own your broadband connection (that is property of your ISP/phone company/cablewala).

Sure, with the electricity example, you can form a contract between myself and you with regards to payment and all that, but in actuality, the right is not conferred to you when you signed up for the electricity in the first place, and it's the same with your Broadband connection. With the driving license example, I'd probably get hauled away for ID theft anyway because no matter whether you gave me permission to use your driving license or not, that license is issued to YOU by the state of whatever (in your case, Maharashtra).

Also, I've already written what is in our contracts: https://broadband.forum/mtnl-broadband/64489-mtnl-broadband-can-use-my/4/#post441641 (keyword is Paragraph 18).

 

[amish]

ok, so u have banned sharing completely. so u have been specific...but MTNL is promoting their product by EXPLICITLY stating that "sharing is allowed". (and no conditions applied). it is one of their key marketing point.now isnt is obvious that if i have taken the connection, its implied that my family members can share it?? so why do they have to state it explicitly then? if thats not true then ur own paragraph 18 means that i can NOT share my connection even with my family members? but thats not so.. i can still share it with my family members.so why has MTNL said it specifically? obviously, because they have allowed sharing (with anyone). it is just you and others are saying that "household is implied"....MTNL also has cybercafe plans right? so in cybercafe anyone can use internet...now its not MTNL's responsibility to have a record of who is on the network. It becomes cybercafe owner's responsibility...sameway if i am sharing my connection its my responsibility... MTNL can provide my information to government if anything wrong has been done using the connection. so its within license obligations.

 

[mgcarley]

ok, so u have banned sharing completely. so u have been specific...but MTNL is promoting their product by EXPLICITLY stating that "sharing is allowed". (and no conditions applied). it is one of their key marketing point.

now isnt is obvious that if i have taken the connection, its implied that my family members can share it?? so why do they have to state it explicitly then? if thats not true then ur own paragraph 18 means that i can NOT share my connection even with my family members? but thats not so.. i can still share it with my family members.


No, we have not banned completely - you may share within your own household, but that is it. Of course, "within your household" DOES confer you the right to use the connection via WiFi in the garden or whatever, but if your neighbours want to use broadband, they must buy their own connection.

As for MTNL, if you read the thing properly it just isn't a key marketing point and nor is sharing allowed - it says that you may create a LAN, but this does not in any way confer to the right to share the connection with the neighbours.

Were it not for the restriction on page 3 of that document, then yes, I would agree with you that sharing for the purpose of creating a LAN on page 2 of the agreement would include the ability to run the cable between you and your neighbours, but the "location specific" clause narrows down the usage of "sharing".

so why has MTNL said it specifically? obviously, because they have allowed sharing (with anyone). it is just you and others are saying that "household is implied"....


Further to the license agreement that MTNL signs with the DoT, the Government of India itself prohibits sharing the connection without explicit consent. Why would MTNL be allowed to implement such a policy and nobody else? MTNL has *NOT* said specifically that you may share with the neighbours - they say in the contract that the connection is location specific, which is one connection = one address. If you share the connection with someone who does not live at the same address as you then under a residential contract this is considered a breach and would be worthy of a warning.

If you were on my network and chose to contravene the terms of the contract, I *would* be inclined to terminate your connection, since you clearly weren't taking the contract seriously and abiding by those terms - and if you can't abide by those terms, then it's inferred that you're also not bound to abide by any of the other terms such as paying your bill or perhaps committing some online crimes.

In short, the copy of the signed agreement between your household and my company wouldn't be worth the paper that the contract is printed on, and with a null-and-void contract I would no longer be obliged to provide you with services. If you really don't believe me then I can only recommend you get the opinion of a contract lawyer as to the potential definitions of "location specific" in MTNL's contract.

MTNL also has cybercafe plans right? so in cybercafe anyone can use internet...now its not MTNL's responsibility to have a record of who is on the network. It becomes cybercafe owner's responsibility...

sameway if i am sharing my connection its my responsibility... MTNL can provide my information to government if anything wrong has been done using the connection. so its within license obligations.

Cybercafe plans *DO* confer the right for anyone to come and use the internet, with the provision that the operator of the cybercafe maintains a log of who used the connection and when. This is not the case with a residential contract as you have.

Each type of plan has separate contracts with different clauses for the respective use of the connection - Businesses, Cybercafes and Schools all abide by (slightly different) terms to Residential consumers, but the general difference is to cover use of Internet services by employees/students/customers and that they too must maintain logs of who has access to the connection.

---------- Post added at 12:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 PM ----------

Here is what the DoT has to say about it:

27. The Subscriber Terminals:
27.1 The LICENSEE shall have the right to undertake the sale, hire purchase, lease or renting of the subscriber/ mobile terminals. Proper usage of terminal at subscriber's premises shall be as per agreement between the Licensee and subscriber.
27.2 The LICENSEE shall be responsible to ensure that the subscriber terminal is operated in accordance with the terms of the Licence and the WPC Licence. The SIM Card / any type of service enactment card, is non-transferable.
27.3 Subscriber will be free to obtain the Subscriber Terminal at his option from any source meeting the technical specifications prescribed by licensee and within the scope of services mentioned in the licence.


27.1 = Licensee (the ISP) and the Subscriber (you). Not the ISP and you and your neighbour.
27.2 = In other words, you do not have the right to let someone who doesn't live in your household use your connection on any kind of permanent basis (as in, you can't subscribe on behalf of anyone else).

MTNL's contract also says you can't re-sell the service, so your neighbour can't even give you half the bill amount for his "share", either.

 

[amish]

Features of Broadband / ADSL Service

Features .. I hope that you consider use of word Features as marketing point.

It states:
Can share Broadband connection to create own LAN network i.e. more than one PC can be connected.

Other page: MTNL Services (already posted)

*** Why BROADBAND/ ADSL from MTNL
Sharing:Can share connection to create your own network.
It does not say that you can not share with friends...does not explicitly state household..it is you who claim it to be implied...

And if its implied... then any other ISP also allow to share in household, dont they?? Why make it a point of marketing? Or do they mean to say other ISPs dont allow and we allow to share within household?

Location specific word is used for the connection and the equipment, i.e. i cant transfer my telephone cable connection OR adsl modem to friends house. It is you (and others) who is assuming that its abt sharing.

---------- Post added at 12:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:46 PM ----------

27.1 = Licensee (the ISP) and the Subscriber (you). Not the ISP and you and your neighbour.
as per agreement sharing is allowed.. so its within 27.1

27.2 = In other words, you do not have the right to let someone who doesn't live in your household use your connection on any kind of permanent basis (as in, you can't subscribe on behalf of anyone else).
Does MTNL give me service card??? no.. so how come 27.2 become applicable?? and even if its applicable... WHO told you that it is transferrable even to members of the house? this you assumed right? NON_TRANSFERABLE means non-transferable to ANYONE... did they say MEMBERS allowed?? so if connection is in ur dads name.. LEGALLY you cant use it. but dont tell me that household is IMPLIED.

and i am not transferring anything to my friend... its still under my name and still in use by me. even mobile SIM cards are non-transferrable,... that doesnt mean i cant allow my friend to use my mobile and make calls...

mobile is mine.. broadband is mine
mobile phone is under my name... broadband line is under my name... i.e. i have not tranferred it.
my friend is making the call...my friend is sharing the connection (because MTNL said sharing is allowed)

its simple..nothing is violated.. OR tranferred to him.

MTNL's contract also says you can't re-sell the service, so your neighbour can't even give you half the bill amount for his "share", either.
prove me that i am re-selling it to my friend or getting commercial benefits and ISP will get the right to disconnect my connection.

---------- Post added at 01:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 PM ----------

and finally... i have put my stand.. i am not going to repeat same thing again and again. 😀 i am at peace!

 

[mgcarley]

Features of Broadband / ADSL Service

Features .. I hope that you consider use of word Features as marketing point.

It states:
Can share Broadband connection to create own LAN network i.e. more than one PC can be connected.

Other page: MTNL Services (already posted)

*** Why BROADBAND/ ADSL from MTNL
Sharing: Can share connection to create your own network.
It does not say that you can not share with friends...does not explicitly state household..it is you who claim it to be implied...

And if its implied... then any other ISP also allow to share in household, dont they?? Why make it a point of marketing? Or do they mean to say other ISPs dont allow and we allow to share within household?

Location specific word is used for the connection and the equipment, i.e. i cant transfer my telephone cable connection OR adsl modem to friends house. It is you (and others) who is assuming that its abt sharing.

First of all: Can share Broadband connection to create own LAN network i.e. more than one PC can be connected.

Yes. We understand that. So what is a LAN?

Common definition: A local area network (LAN) is a computer network that connects computers and devices in a limited geographical area such as home, school, computer laboratory or office building.

As such, "sharing Broadband connection to create own LAN network" could be strictly defined as "Share Broadband connection by connecting any device in your home to the connection", given that the definition we are using is suggests "within your home".

Going back to the LEGAL side of things, considering you have signed a residential contract for a residential connection, the other definitions can not apply - you are not in a school, computer laboratory or office building. At best you are in an apartment building, however each address in an apartment building is legally considered a separate entity, even if the owners may be the same people or in the same family (bloodline or immediate relatives).

Just because it's not explicitly stated in this feature list, that doesn't over-ride what's in the contract or the governing regulations of the city, state & country.

Technically and legally speaking, if you laid a permanent LAN cable to your neighbours, you could be in violation of Section 4 of the Telegraph Act of 1885 (operating an unauthorized telegraph) - as archaic as that sounds, the fact is you would be providing a communications service to someone without appropriate license to do so which is punishable by up to 3 years in prison under Indian penal code, not to mention whatever MTNL would want to do with you for having breached their contract.

Remember: You're talking about the feature list (where it does not explicitly forbid sharing with the neighbours). I'm talking about the contract, and more importantly, the government regulations (where it does).

 

[amish]

instead of seeing wikipedia.. can you please go and read actual dictionary meaning of LAN??

i hope dictionary meaning shud stand right?

Lan | Define Lan at Dictionary.com

1. a system for linking private telecommunications equipment, as in a building or cluster of buildings.
2. Computers. a system for linking a number of microcomputers, terminals, work stations, etc. with each other or with a mainframe computer in order to share data, printers, information, programs, disks, etc.; usually confined to one office or building.Compare network (def. 6).

where did LAN definition say.. household? or within house?

anyway. as i said.. i dont have anything more to say.

---------- Post added at 01:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:06 PM ----------

Technically and legally speaking, if you laid a permanent LAN cable to your neighbours, you could be in violation of Section 4 of the Telegraph Act of 1885 (operating an unauthorized telegraph) - as archaic as that sounds, the fact is you would be providing a communications service to someone without appropriate license to do so which is punishable by up to 3 years in prison under Indian penal code, not to mention whatever MTNL would want to do with you for having breached their contract.

haha, we all end users shud be put behind the bars... because i dont have license.. and my friend just came yesterday at my house.. because he does not have internet....so i gave him my internet services to use.