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Hayai Broadband - Fair Usage Policy
- Thread starter mgcarley
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mgcarley
Founder, Hayai Broadband
how?
In the forms of discounts/account credits or something like that .
Hey hey one more thing. If as you said in this thread that it costs you the same to deliver 300 GB at 5 mbps and 100 mbps then why are not all plans 100 mbps ? Is it that you fear the usage will increase too high ?
No. All data-based plans are 100mbit/s.
We don't have anything like 300GB @ 5mbit/s for one price and then 300GB @ 100mbit/s for another price. In my eyes that sort of pricing is stupid and such tariffs should be stopped as soon as possible.
Flat-rate pricing is in speed tiers because its flat-rate. We generally assume that someone with a 100mbit/s connection is going to download more than someone with a 5mbit/s connection.
Excepting extreme cases of network abuse, we only limit one thing (data) or the other (speed) - not both.
---------- Post added at 07:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:52 PM ----------
Also @admin and I just had an exchange on Google Buzz:
--snipped--
Mathew Carley - Not exactly.
At the wholesale level, we pay a flat-rate for each multiple of 155mbit/s that we buy.
But from the last-mile point of view, there is no point in putting a limit on speed if we put a limit on data transfer, that's the only part that Airtel needs to rectify.
My proposal to them would be that the simply unleash the speed caps on any plan which has a limit on data transfer - rather than having 2 or 4mbit/s until 10 or 30 or 50 or 100GB, they could just have up to ADSL2+ speeds instead (and then apply the FUP as appropriate).
It works in NZ, there is no reason it couldn't work for Airtel also - and if anyone can do it, they can. Real-world speeds here (despite being up to ADSL2+) are probably 5-10mbit/s depending on which urban area you live, but there are people like me who get 15 or more. With the way Airtel's DSL network is set up, I would expect that their users should get 20.
Yes, that does mean that users could use up a 100GB cap in 1-2 days but at the end of the day, that's the user's problem, not Airtels, and they really need to start thinking about charging for larger units rather than per MB - just visiting certain websites these days (say, yahoo.com) can eat up 1MB.
If 100GB is Rs5000 = Rs50/GB, then why is each extra GB going to cost 8 times as much? Twice as much is maybe OK but EIGHT TIMES? That's just ridiculous. If India had the equivalent of New Zealand's commerce commission, Airtel and every other ISP would be "eaten for breakfast".
Perhaps next time you meet with them, let me know and we can have a conference call. Mind forwarding the excel sheet?
Mathew Carley - And another thing, Rs5000 for 100GB doesn't really fit in with their other pricing.
I think the existing impatience plans are Rs1799 for 50GB, right? This means Rs35.98/GB.
Why is a 100GB plan Rs1400 more expensive than it should be? (should be only Rs3600 by my calculations, and that would include a 256kbit/s FUP after the limit has been reached!!)
In the forms of discounts/account credits or something like that .
Hey hey one more thing. If as you said in this thread that it costs you the same to deliver 300 GB at 5 mbps and 100 mbps then why are not all plans 100 mbps ? Is it that you fear the usage will increase too high ?
No. All data-based plans are 100mbit/s.
We don't have anything like 300GB @ 5mbit/s for one price and then 300GB @ 100mbit/s for another price. In my eyes that sort of pricing is stupid and such tariffs should be stopped as soon as possible.
Flat-rate pricing is in speed tiers because its flat-rate. We generally assume that someone with a 100mbit/s connection is going to download more than someone with a 5mbit/s connection.
Excepting extreme cases of network abuse, we only limit one thing (data) or the other (speed) - not both.
---------- Post added at 07:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:52 PM ----------
Also @admin and I just had an exchange on Google Buzz:
--snipped--
Mathew Carley - Not exactly.
At the wholesale level, we pay a flat-rate for each multiple of 155mbit/s that we buy.
But from the last-mile point of view, there is no point in putting a limit on speed if we put a limit on data transfer, that's the only part that Airtel needs to rectify.
My proposal to them would be that the simply unleash the speed caps on any plan which has a limit on data transfer - rather than having 2 or 4mbit/s until 10 or 30 or 50 or 100GB, they could just have up to ADSL2+ speeds instead (and then apply the FUP as appropriate).
It works in NZ, there is no reason it couldn't work for Airtel also - and if anyone can do it, they can. Real-world speeds here (despite being up to ADSL2+) are probably 5-10mbit/s depending on which urban area you live, but there are people like me who get 15 or more. With the way Airtel's DSL network is set up, I would expect that their users should get 20.
Yes, that does mean that users could use up a 100GB cap in 1-2 days but at the end of the day, that's the user's problem, not Airtels, and they really need to start thinking about charging for larger units rather than per MB - just visiting certain websites these days (say, yahoo.com) can eat up 1MB.
If 100GB is Rs5000 = Rs50/GB, then why is each extra GB going to cost 8 times as much? Twice as much is maybe OK but EIGHT TIMES? That's just ridiculous. If India had the equivalent of New Zealand's commerce commission, Airtel and every other ISP would be "eaten for breakfast".
Perhaps next time you meet with them, let me know and we can have a conference call. Mind forwarding the excel sheet?
Mathew Carley - And another thing, Rs5000 for 100GB doesn't really fit in with their other pricing.
I think the existing impatience plans are Rs1799 for 50GB, right? This means Rs35.98/GB.
Why is a 100GB plan Rs1400 more expensive than it should be? (should be only Rs3600 by my calculations, and that would include a 256kbit/s FUP after the limit has been reached!!)
In the forms of discounts/account credits or something like that .
No. All data-based plans are 100mbit/s.
We don't have anything like 300GB @ 5mbit/s for one price and then 300GB @ 100mbit/s for another price. In my eyes that sort of pricing is stupid and such tariffs should be stopped as soon as possible.
Flat-rate pricing is in speed tiers because its flat-rate. We generally assume that someone with a 100mbit/s connection is going to download more than someone with a 5mbit/s connection.
Excepting extreme cases of network abuse, we only limit one thing (data) or the other (speed) - not both.
---------- Post added at 07:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:52 PM ----------
Also @admin and I just had an exchange on Google Buzz:
--snipped--
all I can say from the extra 1400 is that Airtel is making more money than they should be making.
Well, thanks mgcarley for all the patience you have shown so far in answering all the questions. I would LOVE to be a Hayai customer.:urock🙁when you expand to Nagpur of course)
And the railway station thing. Is the coverage for all the stations or only the main stations ? Because Nagpur has two stations which basically connect to the city -- Nagpur and Ajni. I live around 4 km radius from Nagpur and 2km radius from
Ajni. All the other stations are of rural Nagpur-- like Khapri, Sindi, Itwari(Itwari is in the city but it is nothing compared to main Nagpur or Ajni.
No. All data-based plans are 100mbit/s.
We don't have anything like 300GB @ 5mbit/s for one price and then 300GB @ 100mbit/s for another price. In my eyes that sort of pricing is stupid and such tariffs should be stopped as soon as possible.
Flat-rate pricing is in speed tiers because its flat-rate. We generally assume that someone with a 100mbit/s connection is going to download more than someone with a 5mbit/s connection.
Excepting extreme cases of network abuse, we only limit one thing (data) or the other (speed) - not both.
---------- Post added at 07:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:52 PM ----------
Also @admin and I just had an exchange on Google Buzz:
--snipped--
all I can say from the extra 1400 is that Airtel is making more money than they should be making.
Well, thanks mgcarley for all the patience you have shown so far in answering all the questions. I would LOVE to be a Hayai customer.:urock🙁when you expand to Nagpur of course)
And the railway station thing. Is the coverage for all the stations or only the main stations ? Because Nagpur has two stations which basically connect to the city -- Nagpur and Ajni. I live around 4 km radius from Nagpur and 2km radius from
Ajni. All the other stations are of rural Nagpur-- like Khapri, Sindi, Itwari(Itwari is in the city but it is nothing compared to main Nagpur or Ajni.
mgcarley
Founder, Hayai Broadband
all I can say from the extra 1400 is that Airtel is making more money than they should be making.
Well, thanks mgcarley for all the patience you have shown so far in answering all the questions. I would LOVE to be a Hayai customer.:urock🙁when you expand to Nagpur of course)
Nagpur MH is on the list.
And the railway station thing. Is the coverage for all the stations or only the main stations ? Because Nagpur has two stations which basically connect to the city -- Nagpur and Ajni. I live around 4 km radius from Nagpur and 2km radius from
Ajni. All the other stations are of rural Nagpur-- like Khapri, Sindi, Itwari(Itwari is in the city but it is nothing compared to main Nagpur or Ajni.
A large percentage of railway stations in India have Fiber running through them already. The closer you are to a station, the less last-mile we have to build to get to you, but there are other topographical issues we have to deal with as well so it's not necessarily a guarantee, either.
Well, thanks mgcarley for all the patience you have shown so far in answering all the questions. I would LOVE to be a Hayai customer.:urock🙁when you expand to Nagpur of course)
Nagpur MH is on the list.
And the railway station thing. Is the coverage for all the stations or only the main stations ? Because Nagpur has two stations which basically connect to the city -- Nagpur and Ajni. I live around 4 km radius from Nagpur and 2km radius from
Ajni. All the other stations are of rural Nagpur-- like Khapri, Sindi, Itwari(Itwari is in the city but it is nothing compared to main Nagpur or Ajni.
A large percentage of railway stations in India have Fiber running through them already. The closer you are to a station, the less last-mile we have to build to get to you, but there are other topographical issues we have to deal with as well so it's not necessarily a guarantee, either.
Sorry for bumping this thread after 2 months...
Just having some nostalgia..
I noticed this:
Mathew Carley - Not exactly.
At the wholesale level, we pay a flat-rate for each multiple of 155mbit/s that we buy.
But from the last-mile point of view, there is no point in putting a limit on speed if we put a limit on data transfer, that's the only part that Airtel needs to rectify.
My proposal to them would be that the simply unleash the speed caps on any plan which has a limit on data transfer - rather than having 2 or 4mbit/s until 10 or 30 or 50 or 100GB, they could just have up to ADSL2+ speeds instead (and then apply the Fair Usage Policy as appropriate).
It works in NZ, there is no reason it couldn't work for Airtel also - and if anyone can do it, they can. Real-world speeds here (despite being up to ADSL2+) are probably 5-10mbit/s depending on which urban area you live, but there are people like me who get 15 or more. With the way Airtel's DSL network is set up, I would expect that their users should get 20.
Yes, that does mean that users could use up a 100GB cap in 1-2 days but at the end of the day, that's the user's problem, not Airtels, and they really need to start thinking about charging for larger units rather than per MB - just visiting certain websites these days (say, yahoo.com) can eat up 1MB.
If 100GB is Rs5000 = Rs50/GB, then why is each extra GB going to cost 8 times as much? Twice as much is maybe OK but EIGHT TIMES? That's just ridiculous. If India had the equivalent of New Zealand's commerce commission, Airtel and every other ISP would be "eaten for breakfast".
Perhaps next time you meet with them, let me know and we can have a conference call. Mind forwarding the excel sheet?
I read this again, and I feel, if all the fuped plans are made 24 mbps then don't you think the prices will rise higher still by much more?
I mean if Airtel's style of pricing is considered then the prices will then even be Rs 65-75 per gb(for the "comfort", and also they'll have to increase their FUP higher still, just like you have speed tiers, if you remove all tiers instead of the highest, not many people will take it, right?) at adsl2+ speeds instead of Rs 35-50 per gb, that will be a considerable increase and will result in a severe decrease in the number of customers (atleast in my opinion).
Don't give them many ideas though.. or they'll accuse you of stealing their ideas after Hayai's launch.
Just having some nostalgia..
I noticed this:
Mathew Carley - Not exactly.
At the wholesale level, we pay a flat-rate for each multiple of 155mbit/s that we buy.
But from the last-mile point of view, there is no point in putting a limit on speed if we put a limit on data transfer, that's the only part that Airtel needs to rectify.
My proposal to them would be that the simply unleash the speed caps on any plan which has a limit on data transfer - rather than having 2 or 4mbit/s until 10 or 30 or 50 or 100GB, they could just have up to ADSL2+ speeds instead (and then apply the Fair Usage Policy as appropriate).
It works in NZ, there is no reason it couldn't work for Airtel also - and if anyone can do it, they can. Real-world speeds here (despite being up to ADSL2+) are probably 5-10mbit/s depending on which urban area you live, but there are people like me who get 15 or more. With the way Airtel's DSL network is set up, I would expect that their users should get 20.
Yes, that does mean that users could use up a 100GB cap in 1-2 days but at the end of the day, that's the user's problem, not Airtels, and they really need to start thinking about charging for larger units rather than per MB - just visiting certain websites these days (say, yahoo.com) can eat up 1MB.
If 100GB is Rs5000 = Rs50/GB, then why is each extra GB going to cost 8 times as much? Twice as much is maybe OK but EIGHT TIMES? That's just ridiculous. If India had the equivalent of New Zealand's commerce commission, Airtel and every other ISP would be "eaten for breakfast".
Perhaps next time you meet with them, let me know and we can have a conference call. Mind forwarding the excel sheet?
I read this again, and I feel, if all the fuped plans are made 24 mbps then don't you think the prices will rise higher still by much more?
I mean if Airtel's style of pricing is considered then the prices will then even be Rs 65-75 per gb(for the "comfort", and also they'll have to increase their FUP higher still, just like you have speed tiers, if you remove all tiers instead of the highest, not many people will take it, right?) at adsl2+ speeds instead of Rs 35-50 per gb, that will be a considerable increase and will result in a severe decrease in the number of customers (atleast in my opinion).
Don't give them many ideas though.. or they'll accuse you of stealing their ideas after Hayai's launch.
Sorry for bumping this thread after 2 months...
Just having some nostalgia..
I noticed this:
I read this again, and I feel, if all the fuped plans are made 24 mbps then don't you think the prices will rise higher still by much more?
I mean if Airtel's style of pricing is considered then the prices will then even be Rs 65-75 per gb(for the "comfort", and also they'll have to increase their FUP higher still, just like you have speed tiers, if you remove all tiers instead of the highest, not many people will take it, right?) at adsl2+ speeds instead of Rs 35-50 per gb, that will be a considerable increase and will result in a severe decrease in the number of customers (atleast in my opinion).
Don't give them many ideas though.. or they'll accuse you of stealing their ideas after Hayai's launch.
Either you are confused or I am confused in understanding what you are saying.
What MGC is advocating is that they stop limiting the ADSL+ speed and allow the max it can go. They just put a cap on data and price it accordingly. Why should lifting the speed cap make the plan more expensive? After all, it is data that costs.
In other words, the plan would be Rs xxx/- for 10 GB, yyy/- for 20 GB, zzz/- for 30 GB and so on. Speed will be all your line can handle.
Just having some nostalgia..
I noticed this:
I read this again, and I feel, if all the fuped plans are made 24 mbps then don't you think the prices will rise higher still by much more?
I mean if Airtel's style of pricing is considered then the prices will then even be Rs 65-75 per gb(for the "comfort", and also they'll have to increase their FUP higher still, just like you have speed tiers, if you remove all tiers instead of the highest, not many people will take it, right?) at adsl2+ speeds instead of Rs 35-50 per gb, that will be a considerable increase and will result in a severe decrease in the number of customers (atleast in my opinion).
Don't give them many ideas though.. or they'll accuse you of stealing their ideas after Hayai's launch.
Either you are confused or I am confused in understanding what you are saying.
What MGC is advocating is that they stop limiting the ADSL+ speed and allow the max it can go. They just put a cap on data and price it accordingly. Why should lifting the speed cap make the plan more expensive? After all, it is data that costs.
In other words, the plan would be Rs xxx/- for 10 GB, yyy/- for 20 GB, zzz/- for 30 GB and so on. Speed will be all your line can handle.
Either you are confused or I am confused in understanding what you are saying.
What MGC is advocating is that they stop limiting the ADSL+ speed and allow the max it can go. They just put a cap on data and price it accordingly. Why should lifting the speed cap make the plan more expensive? After all, it is data that costs.
In other words, the plan would be Rs xxx/- for 10 GB, yyy/- for 20 GB, zzz/- for 30 GB and so on. Speed will be all your line can handle.
That's Hayai's policy, not of Airtel. That's what I mean by comfort. In simple terms, Hayai does not charge extra for comfort.
What MGC is advocating is that they stop limiting the ADSL+ speed and allow the max it can go. They just put a cap on data and price it accordingly. Why should lifting the speed cap make the plan more expensive? After all, it is data that costs.
In other words, the plan would be Rs xxx/- for 10 GB, yyy/- for 20 GB, zzz/- for 30 GB and so on. Speed will be all your line can handle.
That's Hayai's policy, not of Airtel. That's what I mean by comfort. In simple terms, Hayai does not charge extra for comfort.
mgcarley
Founder, Hayai Broadband
Sorry for bumping this thread after 2 months...
Just having some nostalgia..
I noticed this:
I read this again, and I feel, if all the fuped plans are made 24 mbps then don't you think the prices will rise higher still by much more?
I mean if Airtel's style of pricing is considered then the prices will then even be Rs 65-75 per gb(for the "comfort", and also they'll have to increase their FUP higher still, just like you have speed tiers, if you remove all tiers instead of the highest, not many people will take it, right?) at adsl2+ speeds instead of Rs 35-50 per gb, that will be a considerable increase and will result in a severe decrease in the number of customers (atleast in my opinion).
See Daddycool's answer below.
Don't give them many ideas though.. or they'll accuse you of stealing their ideas after Hayai's launch.
How could they accuse me of that when it's well documented both here on IBF and on some other websites that I've been saying they should do this by copying the Kiwis and the Australians who already do it this way?
Either you are confused or I am confused in understanding what you are saying.
What MGC is advocating is that they stop limiting the ADSL+ speed and allow the max it can go. They just put a cap on data and price it accordingly. Why should lifting the speed cap make the plan more expensive? After all, it is data that costs.
In other words, the plan would be Rs xxx/- for 10 GB, yyy/- for 20 GB, zzz/- for 30 GB and so on. Speed will be all your line can handle.
Correct.
That's Hayai's policy, not of Airtel. That's what I mean by comfort. In simple terms, Hayai does not charge extra for comfort.
I don't regard it as a comfort, I regard it as proper utilization of my equipment.
Just having some nostalgia..
I noticed this:
I read this again, and I feel, if all the fuped plans are made 24 mbps then don't you think the prices will rise higher still by much more?
I mean if Airtel's style of pricing is considered then the prices will then even be Rs 65-75 per gb(for the "comfort", and also they'll have to increase their FUP higher still, just like you have speed tiers, if you remove all tiers instead of the highest, not many people will take it, right?) at adsl2+ speeds instead of Rs 35-50 per gb, that will be a considerable increase and will result in a severe decrease in the number of customers (atleast in my opinion).
See Daddycool's answer below.
Don't give them many ideas though.. or they'll accuse you of stealing their ideas after Hayai's launch.
How could they accuse me of that when it's well documented both here on IBF and on some other websites that I've been saying they should do this by copying the Kiwis and the Australians who already do it this way?
Either you are confused or I am confused in understanding what you are saying.
What MGC is advocating is that they stop limiting the ADSL+ speed and allow the max it can go. They just put a cap on data and price it accordingly. Why should lifting the speed cap make the plan more expensive? After all, it is data that costs.
In other words, the plan would be Rs xxx/- for 10 GB, yyy/- for 20 GB, zzz/- for 30 GB and so on. Speed will be all your line can handle.
Correct.
That's Hayai's policy, not of Airtel. That's what I mean by comfort. In simple terms, Hayai does not charge extra for comfort.
I don't regard it as a comfort, I regard it as proper utilization of my equipment.
See Daddycool's answer below.
How could they accuse me of that when it's well documented both here on IBF and on some other websites that I've been saying they should do this by copying the Kiwis and the Australians who already do it this way?
Correct.
I don't regard it as a comfort, I regard it as proper utilization of my equipment.
That's what I said, that's your point of view. Let me put it this way. Remember the discussion of cars that we had? You say if you give everybody a Bugatti then the journey will be short and hence desirable. But what their point of view is that they need to charge normal for a M800, high for a Honda city, higher for a BMW and highest for a Bugatti. So due to this dual thing, they'll think if they offer the Bugatti to everyone then the distance available needs to be increased (it does, as you have in your flat rate plans kept higher expectations of usage in higher tiers) but not that much as they currently do. So they will charge double, both for increased distance of travel(usage), and for increased comfort(speed). So don't you think the prices will rise high?
How could they accuse me of that when it's well documented both here on IBF and on some other websites that I've been saying they should do this by copying the Kiwis and the Australians who already do it this way?
Correct.
I don't regard it as a comfort, I regard it as proper utilization of my equipment.
That's what I said, that's your point of view. Let me put it this way. Remember the discussion of cars that we had? You say if you give everybody a Bugatti then the journey will be short and hence desirable. But what their point of view is that they need to charge normal for a M800, high for a Honda city, higher for a BMW and highest for a Bugatti. So due to this dual thing, they'll think if they offer the Bugatti to everyone then the distance available needs to be increased (it does, as you have in your flat rate plans kept higher expectations of usage in higher tiers) but not that much as they currently do. So they will charge double, both for increased distance of travel(usage), and for increased comfort(speed). So don't you think the prices will rise high?
mgcarley
Founder, Hayai Broadband
That's what I said, that's your point of view. Let me put it this way. Remember the discussion of cars that we had? You say if you give everybody a Bugatti then the journey will be short and hence desirable. But what their point of view is that they need to charge normal for a M800, high for a Honda city, higher for a BMW and highest for a Bugatti. So due to this dual thing, they'll think if they offer the Bugatti to everyone then the distance available needs to be increased (it does, as you have in your flat rate plans kept higher expectations of usage in higher tiers) but not that much as they currently do. So they will charge double, both for increased distance of travel(usage), and for increased comfort(speed). So don't you think the prices will rise high?
I think you've got your car euphamism slightly wrong.
If we talk purely about ADSL for a minute, everyone has access to the same equipment - everyone owns a Toyota Corolla. No matter what road this Toyota is on, it has a top speed of (let's say) 160km/h.
But what's different here is that they are currently charging different amounts for different sized roads (think highway vs the road that probably goes past your house). If they removed the different charges for the road size, and just charge the same amount per KM travelled whether you're on a side-street or a highway, obviously you'll take the highway because you can drive at 160km/h instead of 30km/h.
Getting to your destination more quickly means you don't have to spend as much time on the road, and when everybody's cars are sitting at home because they'are already got from A to B, then there isn't as much congestion.
I think you've got your car euphamism slightly wrong.
If we talk purely about ADSL for a minute, everyone has access to the same equipment - everyone owns a Toyota Corolla. No matter what road this Toyota is on, it has a top speed of (let's say) 160km/h.
But what's different here is that they are currently charging different amounts for different sized roads (think highway vs the road that probably goes past your house). If they removed the different charges for the road size, and just charge the same amount per KM travelled whether you're on a side-street or a highway, obviously you'll take the highway because you can drive at 160km/h instead of 30km/h.
Getting to your destination more quickly means you don't have to spend as much time on the road, and when everybody's cars are sitting at home because they'are already got from A to B, then there isn't as much congestion.
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