Nivyah Broadband

chattambi

Newbie
Messages
8
While Nivyah is run by the same guy as was Exatt, Exatt and it's successor X-broadband are essentially now defunct. There was another company in there as well, but I forget how it was integrated. I heard the story about its history from the CTO at another ISP in Mumbai just last night with regards to the history, which, while interesting, considering I'm "technically" a competitor, I won't repeat here.

Well since u are a player i have a question to ask about internet pricing. we have very expensive broadband and above that the service is not guaranteed. If there is a price optimization by reputed players then we will not have to depend on run by night operators.
 

mgcarley

Founder, Hayai Broadband
Messages
6,298
Well since u are a player i have a question to ask about internet pricing. we have very expensive broadband and above that the service is not guaranteed. If there is a price optimization by reputed players then we will not have to depend on run by night operators.

For pretty much all ISPs, pricing is set by the direct cost of the two people we have to buy services from. On one side we have Tata, Reliance and Bharti selling us their enterprise-class stuff: that's the international bandwidth running on IPLCs - we buy 1 or more link from our supplier(s) of choice at a given rate (I usually go as far to deduce my per-GB cost on a given price: so say I get offered a price of 1 crore per year, I divide that by 12, then divide by the number of GB I can transfer at 150Mbits (allowing approximately 5Mbits for overhead). This works out to about Rs833,334 (as an example) divided by 48 Terabytes (49152GB) = Rs16.95 per GB.

Obviously I can't directly sell bandwidth at less than this price (in theory... some users end up downloading off of each other which helps mitigate that a little bit) - I have to factor in my office space, staff, hardware, marketing etc, but then what do I do if I want to offer an unlimited connection? Obviously that's where the extremely restricted speeds come in: when you restrict a user to 128kbits or 256kbits, then he can only download 40-80GB per month MAXIMUM if he is lucky, so in a way it becomes like an artificial cap.

But the mentality of an unlimited user is "its unlimited". Fair enough. But perhaps I could give you a 50GB plan with much faster speed for the same price. But then the user says "but that's not unlimited", and even though he gets more total bandwidth for the month (and his power bills go down because his computer is not on 24x7), he still goes for the slower unlimited plan.

THEN, there is another cost: the last mile - the local loop. Depending on who you talk to, this can vary very very greatly depending on the city/suburb/operators. For example I get a different quote from Tata for last mile than I do from an average cablewala (though many ISPs actually don't factor in the cablewala's cut in to their prices), and this actually creates some confusion. You get people buying from Nivyah or Fivenet or whoever and saying "Wow, internet for Rs800/1000/1200" or whatever. The cablewala could charge anything from Rs100 to 1000 if he wants to, bringing your total bill (potentially) to much more than the advertised price.

As such, a responsible ISP in my opinion should negotiate with the local operator, collect the full amount from the customer and then pass on a percentage at the end of the month (to save confusion). So where Tata might charge Rs1500 for some connection, then you get the same from say, Hathway/Fivenet/Nivyah for Rs1000, but then you have to pay the cablewala Rs100,200,500, although Tata might look expensive, it all comes out to be roughly the same.

I hope that clarifies something for you.
 

chattambi

Newbie
Messages
8
For pretty much all ISPs, pricing is set by the direct cost of the two people we have to buy services from. On one side we have Tata, Reliance and Bharti selling us their enterprise-class stuff: that's the international bandwidth running on IPLCs - we buy 1 or more link from our supplier(s) of choice at a given rate (I usually go as far to deduce my per-GB cost on a given price: so say I get offered a price of 1 crore per year, I divide that by 12, then divide by the number of GB I can transfer at 150Mbits (allowing approximately 5Mbits for overhead). This works out to about Rs833,334 (as an example) divided by 48 Terabytes (49152GB) = Rs16.95 per GB.

Obviously I can't directly sell bandwidth at less than this price (in theory... some users end up downloading off of each other which helps mitigate that a little bit) - I have to factor in my office space, staff, hardware, marketing etc, but then what do I do if I want to offer an unlimited connection? Obviously that's where the extremely restricted speeds come in: when you restrict a user to 128kbits or 256kbits, then he can only download 40-80GB per month MAXIMUM if he is lucky, so in a way it becomes like an artificial cap.

But the mentality of an unlimited user is "its unlimited". Fair enough. But perhaps I could give you a 50GB plan with much faster speed for the same price. But then the user says "but that's not unlimited", and even though he gets more total bandwidth for the month (and his power bills go down because his computer is not on 24x7), he still goes for the slower unlimited plan.

THEN, there is another cost: the last mile - the local loop. Depending on who you talk to, this can vary very very greatly depending on the city/suburb/operators. For example I get a different quote from Tata for last mile than I do from an average cablewala (though many ISPs actually don't factor in the cablewala's cut in to their prices), and this actually creates some confusion. You get people buying from Nivyah or Fivenet or whoever and saying "Wow, internet for Rs800/1000/1200" or whatever. The cablewala could charge anything from Rs100 to 1000 if he wants to, bringing your total bill (potentially) to much more than the advertised price.

As such, a responsible ISP in my opinion should negotiate with the local operator, collect the full amount from the customer and then pass on a percentage at the end of the month (to save confusion). So where Tata might charge Rs1500 for some connection, then you get the same from say, Hathway/Fivenet/Nivyah for Rs1000, but then you have to pay the cablewala Rs100,200,500, although Tata might look expensive, it all comes out to be roughly the same.

I hope that clarifies something for you.

The issue is that the ISPs are overpricing drastically. If one is lucky to get an connection during the promotional campaigns that they launch. The problem seems to be the inconsistency in pricing... not high pricing. That is why there is wide range of pricing for a similar plan ( say 256 kbps plan). There is in excess of 50 per cent variation in prices even with the big players. That inconsistency can be explained only with the assumption competition is not adequate. As with telecom, prices will fall with more quality competition.

For example i found You telecom to be priced decently. 512 Kpbs priced at 770 rather than 1000 with the closest competitor.
 


mgcarley

Founder, Hayai Broadband
Messages
6,298
The issue is that the ISPs are overpricing drastically. If one is lucky to get an connection during the promotional campaigns that they launch. The problem seems to be the inconsistency in pricing... not high pricing. That is why there is wide range of pricing for a similar plan ( say 256 kbps plan). There is in excess of 50 per cent variation in prices even with the big players. That inconsistency can be explained only with the assumption competition is not adequate. As with telecom, prices will fall with more quality competition.

For example i found You telecom to be priced decently. 512 Kpbs priced at 770 rather than 1000 with the closest competitor.

Yes there is inconsistency in pricing, but it also depends on how the ISP delivers it and indeed, what their margins are - and even how long they plan to stay in business.

YOU Telecom has it's own set of issues - NIXI disconnected them in April for non-payment, but I assume that issue has been resolved. Perhaps for YOUTele it is a scenario whereby the price of their service is 770+tax, but then the cablewala charges on top of that, making the total bill possibly even with, say, the DSL provider, who doesn't have to (in theory, anyway) rely on the cablewalas.

In addition, word among people in the industry is that Nivyah's method of procuring bandwidth is interesting, and so their direct costs are quite low. I've also heard stories (mostly on this forum) about customers getting hit with sometimes quite significant cablewala charges, but as I'm not a customer (and as they are my "competition"), I can't confirm for myself one way or the other.

It's a bit complicated to compare ISPs sometimes - It would be hard to compare us (primarily an FTTH provider) with a wireless provider, as our last-mile costs are very different.

With us, we might appear to be a little on the "expensive" side but that's because we're doing fiber-optics: fiber cables cost more, so we have to pass that on. That and we advertise our prices with tax included.

But, we offer value by offering large amounts of speed: I say if I have fiber going to your house, why shouldn't you be able to utilize it?

When we introduce a wireless service in a few months, our entry-level price will be a bit less (but we won't be advertising it as "Broadband", rather "Broadband lite" - not designed for very heavy usage.
 

chattambi

Newbie
Messages
8
Yes there is inconsistency in pricing, but it also depends on how the ISP delivers it and indeed, what their margins are - and even how long they plan to stay in business.

YOU Telecom has it's own set of issues - NIXI disconnected them in April for non-payment, but I assume that issue has been resolved. Perhaps for YOUTele it is a scenario whereby the price of their service is 770+tax, but then the cablewala charges on top of that, making the total bill possibly even with, say, the DSL provider, who doesn't have to (in theory, anyway) rely on the cablewalas.

In addition, word among people in the industry is that Nivyah's method of procuring bandwidth is interesting, and so their direct costs are quite low. I've also heard stories (mostly on this forum) about customers getting hit with sometimes quite significant cablewala charges, but as I'm not a customer (and as they are my "competition"), I can't confirm for myself one way or the other.

It's a bit complicated to compare ISPs sometimes - It would be hard to compare us (primarily an FTTH provider) with a wireless provider, as our last-mile costs are very different.

With us, we might appear to be a little on the "expensive" side but that's because we're doing fiber-optics: fiber cables cost more, so we have to pass that on. That and we advertise our prices with tax included.

But, we offer value by offering large amounts of speed: I say if I have fiber going to your house, why shouldn't you be able to utilize it?

When we introduce a wireless service in a few months, our entry-level price will be a bit less (but we won't be advertising it as "Broadband", rather "Broadband lite" - not designed for very heavy usage.

A slight correction. You telecom does not rely on Cable Wallahs. I verified that from their representative. They use their own cable modem technology.
 

Sushubh

Administrator
Messages
426,203
Location
Gurugram
but who manages the wiring? btw, you guys have to stop quoting the latest message in the thread!
 


chattambi

Newbie
Messages
8
The Company(you Telecom) manages the wiring and charges for it. Every customer gets a dedicated cable modem. But with annual plans that is waived off. The antecedants of most operators are not known, most local isps change names every 2-3 years as the Name is spoiled by then. I was a long time exatt customer and i have had had pretty bad experience with falling service in annual contracts. The big names like sify and hathway charge a lil too high. We need some sort of regulatory body like TRAI to regulate broadband alone. TRAI guidelines for broadband is pretty vague and tarrifs are not standardized. All the last mile connectivity issues are just a cover used by many operators to exploit customers.

Telecom was initiall costly too , especially Mobile communication. But costs fell and tarrifs rationalised. The same has not hapened with internet because it it is still vewed by the government as elitist and policies towards that also reflect that. Users have to take the burden of caveat emptor (Buyer beware) totally on tjhemselves and even there the trailer is just too good and the real service is not upto standards
 

Sushubh

Administrator
Messages
426,203
Location
Gurugram
The Company(you Telecom) manages the wiring and charges for it.

so you are saying that you telecom has offices in every locality where they operate broadband services and they have dedicated people managing their network cables?
 

mgcarley

Founder, Hayai Broadband
Messages
6,298
A slight correction. You telecom does not rely on Cable Wallahs. I verified that from their representative. They use their own cable modem technology.

I'm quite sure they don't, otherwise you would have more than one cable network in every building. Most buildings are supplied by a single network for both TV and Data services. Phonelines (MTNL) is a different matter entirely.

The Company(you Telecom) manages the wiring and charges for it. Every customer gets a dedicated cable modem. But with annual plans that is waived off. The antecedants of most operators are not known, most local isps change names every 2-3 years as the Name is spoiled by then. I was a long time exatt customer and i have had had pretty bad experience with falling service in annual contracts. The big names like sify and hathway charge a lil too high. We need some sort of regulatory body like TRAI to regulate broadband alone. TRAI guidelines for broadband is pretty vague and tarrifs are not standardized. All the last mile connectivity issues are just a cover used by many operators to exploit customers.

Telecom was initiall costly too , especially Mobile communication. But costs fell and tarrifs rationalised. The same has not hapened with internet because it it is still vewed by the government as elitist and policies towards that also reflect that. Users have to take the burden of caveat emptor (Buyer beware) totally on tjhemselves and even there the trailer is just too good and the real service is not upto standards

TRAI guidelines in my opinion are fairly strict, BUT, just the standards are not very high - 256kbits is still the benchmark for broadband in India - sometime in the near future that may be 2Mbits: which means that either prices will have come down a lot OR everyone will have to change their advertising.

I could only wish that the last mile issues were just a cover. In setting up my own service, I am finding it necessary to co-operate with people I would otherwise consider to be somewhat sociopathic. What is sad to me is the attitude most telecoms companies have towards their customers in India - they're treated a little bit like criminals - "Great! You want internet? What for? You're not planning to actually USE it, we hope - that will cost us money! Oh you are? Well, please submit your mugshot, mother and fathers name, and every city you've visited in the last 10 years, your arrest record and blood type... just in case we invent another way to suck things from you"...... Hmm, fun.

Back to the point, mobile has come up the way it has because it has a much higher demand and is seen as more necessary than broadband, although the two technologies are now coming to be one and the same, and prices are coming down - just not as quickly or as much as they need to for the price and quality of service in India to be the same as it is in say, Europe.

so you are saying that you telecom has offices in every locality where they operate broadband services and they have dedicated people managing their network cables?

Even though their reach is quite limited, I still find it difficult to believe. Of course everyone gets their own cable modem (a cable modem is a cable modem is a cable modem), but cablewalas are very territorial. You've probably heard about some killings a few months back because one operator encroached on anothers turf. What I think happens is YOU gives the cablewala a cut of revenue, rather than the charge being separate.

Yes. They have no affiliations with any CTO

I find this a bit hard to believe. Not even Tata and Reliance use their own cables in all places (for the last 100-meters, anyway... they own and operate the big cables though) - or Hathway and Sify for that matter. Even Airtel sometimes supplies using a cablewalas network. Considering it costs anything from 50 to 80 lakh per kilometer to lay cable - depending on who you talk to - I really don't think YOU is big enough that they would have such a large network of their own in place. Tata finished their new 230Cr network in February, and it only covers 1,500km within Mumbai. Considering Mumbai is over 600sqkm, that's not really very much.

All that said, I could be completely wrong on this, but in that case, how would YOU be able to deliver the internet at this price, considering the cost of laying cables?
 

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